Episode Transcript
Welcome to Not Another TV Lawyer. I'm Chris Shakib. I'm Jessica Hall. And this is a podcast sponsored by the law firm Terrell Hogan that's been in Jacksonville for greater than 50 years. And we are very passionate about helping people and personalizing our service to help them get the service they deserve.
Well, I'm Chris Shakib, and we're here again for another episode of our podcast, Not Another TV Lawyer. And today our special guest is Keith O'Neill. Keith O'Neal is a private investigator who works in Northeast Florida, and we've asked him to come on to talk about some issues related to the kind of work he does as a private investigator.
Uh, Keith, we appreciate you coming. I appreciate you having me. Thank you. Now, you and I have known each other for a number of years. I'm trying to remember. It's been over a decade. Uh, it goes back quite a bit. I think when I first met you, I think you were still working with the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office.
I was. All right. Tell me, what's your background? How long were you with the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office? So I spent about 35 years working for them before leaving and, and starting my own, uh, private investigative business. What kinds of things were you doing at the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office before you left?
You know, I started my career working in patrol, but then, uh, I transferred and worked in the narcotics unit for a number of years. Uh, and then throughout my career, I've worked in several different specialized units. Um, you know, we, we did all types of investigations, um, you know, during the time that I was there.
I know that you're, you're a veteran. You were like, you were a sergeant level two also. I, uh, you were one of the bosses, uh, was a sergeant for 21 years. Yes. Oh, wow. A sergeant for 21 years. And you have the scars to prove it. Uh, glad to be gone. Well, we appreciate your service. Uh, you know, as you know, someone working at the Jacksonville Sheriff's office, um, When you left, uh, I think, like I said, you were still working there when, when I first met you.
Uh, I think I met you because, uh, your mother in law was one of my clients. Yes, correct. And it was actually, Chris, you know, it's interesting because, When I got close to time for me to retire, it was actually you and a number of other attorneys that I knew that encouraged me to start my private investigative business.
Um, you know, y'all had, um, indicated that you, you know, you thought it'd be a waste for all the experience and knowledge that I had to just quit. And not launch a P. I. business and continue helping people, which is what I, you know, that was the whole reason for joining the Sheriff's office to begin with was just to help people.
Well, they weren't wrong. They weren't wrong. So. Getting back to what you have done since leaving the sheriff's office, uh, because I, I see you, um, or, and talk to you at least a lot, a lot since, uh, since you left the sheriff's office, um, my understanding is you're doing investigative work in different types of cases, uh, civil cases like we handle at Terrell Hogan, and then maybe family law cases too.
Thank you. Uh, that's correct. Um, I had done some criminal work for a little bit, but, uh, primarily now, it's, it's all civil and family law. Okay. So, focusing on the work you do in the, in the civil cases in particular, um, uh, one, two of the big issues is, uh, That we have, uh, uh, and the first one is social media.
The second one is just witnesses and, uh, you know, things like that, or finding them, locating them, talking to them. But, uh, let me talk, start with social media. Social media is one of the things that I'm pretty sure that I would have more hair today today. Uh, but for the advent of social media, social media is the thing, one of those things that for lawyers, I mean, it just creates all sorts of potential trouble, uh, you know, things to worry about because it's this process where people will talk about things that in, in, you know, in life beforehand would have been too personal.
Post it in a way that personal information about their lives becomes available, uh, generally. Overshare. Yeah. Uh, so tell me what you do as an investigator, uh, with social media. So pretty much, um, any case that I work these days, one of the first things that I do and other private investigators will do is we'll take a look at people's social media history.
Um, and it doesn't matter whether they've got. You know, what they think is that it's blocked. Uh, there, there are ways that we have to be able to, to take a look at what's out there. And you find that, you know, whether it's a client of mine or whether I'm investigating someone else, you find that so many times people just put information out there that's detrimental.
Um, particularly to a case, if, if they go to the trouble of hiring you as an attorney to represent them, hiring me as a private investigator to assist in the, their case, um, you find that oftentimes they're out there putting information on social media that in the long run, it just hurts the case and you end up having trouble explaining it in a deposition or at mediation.
Uh, oftentimes I know, uh, but for me, um, it's, it's heartbreaking sometimes when I have to call you and tell you what I've come across if it's a client of mine. Right. Now, all of that may be true for our clients, but I guess the flip side of it is, um, there's social media for people. say folks who might cause car accidents and we want to find out about them or witnesses or things like that.
Can you, can you tell me when, when your work with social media, uh, instead of telling you things you don't, that maybe the, Uh, folks who hired you don't want to hear, uh, gets things that they are looking for. What kinds of things are you finding? So, um, you know, oftentimes you have an individual that you're looking for, um, and we're able to find them through social media.
We're able to, you know, I, I explained to folks, sometimes it's like the pieces of a puzzle and you're able to put those pieces together by looking at an individual's social media. Whether it's. Um, a Facebook account or a TikTok account, you're able to look at that and, make a determination that that's the individual that you're looking for.
And then in addition to that, you know, there have been times where I, might be representing a client that was involved in an automobile accident and the individual that was responsible for it is on social media. just talking all about the incident and telling what they've done to the world. I've, unfortunately, don't think in any of the cases you've worked on with me, we've, we've been fortunate enough to have that, but, um, not on those cases, but the, uh, what social media are you able to tap into?
What, what different, So, I mean, obviously, I'm older, uh, than, uh, uh, and so, I only, I have Facebook and LinkedIn, uh, are, are, obviously, I guess those are two of the places that you look. There are, but, you know, I would just tell people this, if, if there's, Anything out there, in the way of a social media platform, depending upon the type of investigation that's being done and the lead way that a private investigator has and doing what they do, we can pretty much gain access to everything.
Oh, wow. Um, so, you know, again, I, tell all of my clients, you know, if you've got something going on, stay off of social media. Right? Do it. Stay off of that social media. That's funny. That's what we tell our clients too. So, could, I mean, can you access, for instance, uh, Instagram, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, uh, you know, all of it that's out there.
We, we can gain access to it one way or another. Where's the. So far, where would you say the number one source for information that your clients can use that's helpful to their cases? Where are you finding that in social media? Well, and it's funny, you mentioned your age a moment ago. It really depends. It used to be Facebook.
But now, um, you know, it seems that the younger folks are gravitating towards TikTok. Right. Right. Uh, Yeah, I, I don't, I could honestly say I wouldn't even know how to go on TikTok. I, uh, I never have, but I hear that's a big deal. My kids tell me that's a big deal, but, um, all right. So social media, uh, can bring out a lot of things and they're, There's good and bad with that, um, but the, you know, I know one of the ways I've had you involved in cases most recently is tracking people down.
I mean, that's, we're looking for witnesses, depending on the case, it could be an auto accident, could be other types of cases that we handle, but, you know, uh, that is one of the things that I have used you on a pretty regular basis doing, um, um, And you said social media is a way to do that. Can you maybe give me an example how you would use social media to track someone, a witness down?
Well, so, you know, private investigators have access to a lot of different databases, just like law enforcement does. Um, they're, they're not as good as law enforcement in many cases. Um, but in social media, for example, you might be looking for an individual that's a witness and in looking at Some of the photos that they may have posted on there, you may find that they're going to a particular, uh, bar on a regular basis.
The, they might be an individual that likes to shoot pool and maybe they're going to a particular pool hall or maybe they go to a particular bowling alley. So, you know, by looking at that, those are ways that we might be able to narrow down finding them. And then oftentimes people actually post photos of an apartment complex where they live or a house that they live in.
And then we're able to. Kind of backtrack that and figure out exactly where they're at when you're looking at someone's social media. First of all, a lot of people say, well, you know, all mine is private. How do you get around that? Or if you're allowed to even say, uh, Well, I would just, uh, I would just tell you that we aren't always who we say we are when we're on social media.
I see. Okay. And there are plenty of people that, um, aren't who they say they are when you're out there. If I look at someone's, um, social media profile on LinkedIn, my understanding is whoever that person is will see that I looked at their social media or that they, their LinkedIn.
Um, does, isn't that something? How do you avoid if you're looking into someone, um, and. You may or may not want them to know you're investigating them. How do you avoid that? Well, there are some settings for LinkedIn where you can block who you are. But beyond that, again, though it may not be in compliance with their terms and conditions, you know, there's nothing that keeps you from creating a false persona.
Right. And then going out there and looking for what you need to find. Okay. Not that you would ever do that. Oh, no. No. Mm mm. All right. That's how all these people get catfished, like in those dating websites and whatever they'll remember. That's like a, that was like a, I think it was a TV show too, but like people, like you, for example, I've had some experience with online dating and people will post a picture up and you go meet them and that might've been their picture 10 or 15 years ago, but it's not their picture now.
And, Correct. Yeah. So. All right. I have that. I will. I have a different experience. Uh, there was a time when I, you know, after I ended up being divorced, uh, where I was newly single, uh, in a, I didn't expect to be. And so I was, uh, on match. com and, uh, uh, catfishing the, the first contact I had from my wife, Jamie.
I did not believe it was really her because it was too good to be true. She was very pretty, younger than me. She was the one who contacted me and You know, just everything she'd said was, I was confident she was a catfish. And so we, we talked, we texted for a while. And, uh, and finally we agreed to meet somewhere.
And so I, I think I got there early just to wait to watch whoever it was come in. And, uh, Lo and behold, everything turned out to be true. I was the opposite of catfished. I was confident it was a catfish and it, it didn't turn out to be that way. I, I think more often it goes the other way. But, um, the, social media, like I said, for an attorney, uh.
It's something that can make us lose our hair or have our hair turn gray. Um, the other thing I wanted to talk about with you is surveillance and, uh, issues like that. Is that, can you explain what surveillance is? Yeah, so, um, you know, depending upon the type of case that I'm working, um, oftentimes I have to go out and follow individuals, um, to determine where they might be going, uh, to determine whether or not they might have, um, somebody, you know, coming by where they live.
You know, oftentimes in divorce cases, you may have, um, an individual that's going through a divorce and, and they, you know, they think their spouse is cheating. And so, you know, through doing surveillance, we are able to determine whether or not they're meeting up with somebody either where they're living, or they may be meeting up with them at a bar or another establishment sometimes.
Okay. So that's one of the things that you can do through surveillance. Um, as an attorney representing people who are in auto accidents. We have, uh, our own clients, uh, where insurance companies will hire investigators like yourself to do surveillance of the clients. And, you know, we talk to our clients about that, that look, you know, anywhere, Any time you're out in public, while this case is pending, there, there may be someone, uh, following you around with a, a camera.
Um, are there any limitations as to what an investigator, say, hired by the insurance company, uh, can do to surveil people who might be our clients? Yeah, they, you know, investigators legally can't. Go peeking over the fence in the backyard, they can't trespass on their property, so there, there are some limitations there, but you are right, the insurance companies will oftentimes hire investigators that go by and, you know, they'll drive by and see, you know, is this individual that is injured, Are they outside cutting grass?
Are they, out riding on a jet ski, you know, and, and doing things like this? I mean, that's the purpose for the investigator to go by to find out if the individual is, is really injured as they claim or not. I've had experiences with this doing other types of cases like workers comp cases and things like that.
Correct. And, um, for example, my client, this is, this is my new code phrase is I can barely make it to the mailbox. That's how I know there might be a problem. And so, um, you would, they would be like, no, no, no, I'm not doing anything. I'm not doing anything. Okay. Okay. And then I get the surveillance video and they are like weight lifting in their garage with the garage open and loading a grill on the back of a truck or whatever, you know, just things that, you know, they're not supposed to be doing and correct.
And then I'm like, Hey, remember when we talked about that, you know, so, yeah. Well, and, and Chris, you know, it's, it's worth mentioning too. I mean, you have. Individuals sometimes that, you know, think that You know, okay. I'm going to go offshore fishing. I'm going to be out 40 miles and nobody will know I can assure you that a competent investigator has the ability to follow them 40 miles offshore or be there at the dock when they're unloading their fish.
So, you know, yeah, I mean, people need to be aware that there's really nowhere that you're going to go out in public that an investigator can't go to. Okay. Yeah. And what I tell clients is like, you, have to assume that while you have a case pending, that anywhere you go, people are going to be watching.
But here's the thing, the way that's not a problem is if we're just honest about where things are, you know, I, yes, I don't want my, I don't want clients who are going to exaggerate what they're doing. I tell my clients, look, you know, we'll take whatever it is. you know, whatever the truth is, that's what we'll pursue.
Um, if you exaggerate. Or if you bend the truth about how bad you're hurt or what you can or cannot do. Inevitably, that's the surveillance they'll find. And it is death to the case. It is. I mean, I've, you know, I've, I've been practicing law for 32 years. And unfortunately, I have cases where the surveillance killed the case and, you know, telling the truth.
I, you know, I, I tell my clients that, you know, I can deal with a lot of things, but if you get caught not being honest, I, I can't help you. Once that happens, it's the end. We can deal with the truth, whatever it is, as long as we're telling the truth. Correct. But you get caught not telling the truth. I don't, I mean, the best lawyer in the world, and I think I'm a pretty good lawyer, uh, I, I can't fix that.
Yeah, and I mean, again, I mean, you know, you, you're right. You might as well assume that if you're going through any type of litigation, um, like what you're describing, Assume there's a private investigator watching you, right? I mean, I remember a case from a long time ago. Uh, it was, I don't remember how the woman was injured.
I don't think it was an auto. I think it was like a trip and fall and she had a legitimate injury that resulted in surgery, maybe even two different surgeries. And, um, she was given restrictions from her orthopedic surgeon. And, uh, You know, the defense, uh, the insurance company, uh, hired an investigator who took video of the woman and they had video of her, um, at a gas station and nothing she was doing in the video, uh, really was in violation of any of the restrictions her orthopedic surgeon had given her.
She was walking and, uh, but what was painful, what, what hurt us, uh, Was that she just didn't look injured, you know, and she was walking around kind of, uh, you know, just bopping or, you know, from the gas tank, gas tank to, I don't know, I guess she went inside the convenience store part, but she looked fine.
She looked okay. And when we would see her in deposition or other things, you know, it was like, Oh, so she wasn't saying anything, but just even her demeanor turned out to be kind of a misrepresentation. And, and again, I mean, you know, as a private investigator, you, you talk about the gas station. I mean, you're in a public area.
So you're looking for that opportunity to videotape someone and see, are, how are they walking? How are they bending? How are they stooping? You know, um, you know, those sorts of things. Are, are they picking up? objects that are heavy, um, you know, that's not consistent with the injury that they're indicating that they have.
And it, it absolutely kills the case. And, uh, you know, I, it's what, again, I, I tell the clients I can deal with anything except a lie. Right. You know, we can deal with whatever the truth is. That's the truth. We will pursue your case based on that truth, but if you exaggerate, There's no coming back from that.
There's just, there's none. No, and, you're right, I mean, you know, I, tell all the clients that I represent on the cases that I handle, no matter what it is, is just be honest with me up front. Whatever the situation is, be honest with me, because if, you get me into a situation where you're not honest and then, you know, now I'm in a bind just like you are when we go to court or we go to mediation with it.
Yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's not one of the things, uh, that I like to happen, and fortunately, As I've gotten more experienced, um, you know, we avoid that because I, I, I try, we try to tell the clients from the very beginning that honesty is, you know, something that we have to, there's, there's this misconception for movies and, uh, and books and TV shows that lawyers are the guys who actually kind of, or, or women who bend the truth that we're the, and really that's.
It's not like that because it's, nothing hurts us more than having the perception of, of being dishonest. Uh, we, there are a lot of good lawyers out there and the, the way they continue to be good lawyers is because we, we know when they say something they mean it and they're not dishonest. And, you know, dishonesty from the client is, like I said, death.
But, um, Well, the, so, surveillance, um, what other types of things can you investigate, say, there's an accident, uh, the client was, you know, injured by someone who was driving a vehicle, and, you know, they're, we want to investigate the driver who got the ticket, who's at fault, um, are you able to look into things about, you know, uh, Things they might own or, um, properties or, uh, and what, what are the resources you use to try to track that information down?
Well, you know, again, I mean, there are a number of databases that, that are at my disposal, um, I'm able to look at not only an individual's background, their driving history, but I'm also able to determine assets that they may own, uh, properties, uh, you know, that they may own, um, all of those sorts of things that again, will be put together in a package and, and brought back and delivered to the attorney that's representing the client, such as yourself.
Um, but yes, we're, we're able to track all of that information. And then there are, um, uh, additional, uh, investigators out there that specifically focus on, um, assets and they have the ability to track assets around the world and find bank accounts and, and whatnot, no matter where it's at. Oh, I'd like to find one with my money in it.
Find one with my name on it and be like, Oh. Keith, can you find bank accounts with our own names on it that have lots of money, even if we didn't put it there? I wish I could. Yeah, that would be nice, but um, we'll try to just focus on what we can do. Right, yeah. Right. But, but then, you know, Chris, too, I mean, you know, when you, you're talking about these investigators, I mean, you know, there are, there's, um, investigators that have a wealth of experience in traffic accident reconstruction, and with today's vehicles, I mean, they're all pretty much smart vehicles.
There's, um, equipment inside all of these vehicles that you're able to go back and download the data from them and determine, you know, what led up to the accident and what the vehicle was doing just prior to the accident. So that's a wealth of information for you as an attorney. Right. I, you know, I'd say that that's one of the biggest changes in handling auto accidents from when I first started doing them.
I mean, the first one I ever handled was, uh, 91 when I was a law clerk at a firm, that was before I even got out of law school. And now, uh, the, the information in the databases with the vehicles, with the cars is. I mean, there's so much. Uh, I I mean, I I drive a Tesla 3, you know, the, the the smallest Tesla you can buy.
And, uh, my wife knows we're just, she can look on an app on her phone and she knows exactly where I am in the car at any given moment. If I'll call her, she'll say, Oh, you're, uh, driving by the Publix. Can you stop and get something? And yeah, I like to, you know, I was driving by the Publix, but I remember, Oh yeah, we're living in.
2024 and we can do that now. But, uh, well, the technology has changed so much just in our lifetime. Um, You know, I, I recently was, um, speaking with someone that, that knows a lot more about the technology than I do, and they were explaining that not only can companies like Apple determine where your phone is at at a given time, but they can actually tell you which way that phone is facing.
Um, so, I mean, it's, it's incredible the technology that is out there and a lot of that is available to attorneys, um, you know, depending upon the circumstance of the case that's being investigated. Um, but yeah, I mean, our, our, all of our smart devices are tracking us all the time anymore. Every time you download an app, you give them permission to track you.
If somebody wanted to hire you and needed the use of your services, how could they get a hold of you? Uh, they can reach me through my website, uh, O'Neal, O N E A L Investigations dot com, or they can call me, uh, the phone number for my business is 904 703 8825. Well, Keith, I appreciate you coming and being a guest on our podcast, Not Another TV Lawyer.
Uh, you know, we, we'll always continue to use you as a resource in our cases, and we've had a great relationship and, uh. I have him on speed dial. Do you have him on speed dial? I don't know that I have anybody on speed dial. I, I'm an, an analog guy living in a digital world. Um, but I have you. You have me.
Yes. That's what, uh, you are my speed dial. But Keith, I appreciate you, uh, coming and, um, we'll be working more in the future. I appreciate it, Chris. Thank you. Thanks for being here.
Thanks again for listening to Not Another TV Lawyer. We hope that you will tune in to the next episode. Not Another TV Lawyer is sponsored by my law firm, Terrell Hogan Law. Terrell Hogan represents people in a lot of different areas of injury type law, as well as business claims throughout the state of Florida.
We represent people in auto accidents, trip and falls, people who have been exposed to asbestos and developed conditions related to that. Victims of medical negligence, victims of defective products, including medical devices and pharmaceuticals. Please feel free to look us up at www. terrelhogan. com. We look forward to hearing and being with you soon.
